Top 5 Ways to Disrupt the Gap

Women earn 84 cents for every dollar a man earns.

Want to change this statistic? Listen to our newest podcast episode featuring a conversation between Tara Thurber and Disrupt the Gap Founder, Shell Bobev.

Together, they discuss the importance of wage equality and the challenges women face in the workforce.

Shell emphasizes the need for transparency and organizational change to address pay gaps.

Top5 Tips to Disrupt the Gap

1. Connect Stakeholders
2. Immediate & Long Term Solutions
3. Influencing WIIFM
4. Provide Clarity, Possibility & Confidence
5. Address Inner Gaps

About Shell - 

Shell Bobev is the Founder of Disrupt The Gap, a platform that empowers people’s lifelong financial independence through a multi-front disruption of pay gaps.  After advocating for her own equal pay in the corporate world and legal system, she realized a calling to create bold solutions for systemic change.  Disrupt The Gap guides organizations with implementing equitable and future-proof compensation practices, as well as empowers individuals with self-advocacy skills.  Among other degrees, Shell holds a Masters of Adult Education, and Certifications in Human Resources & DEI.  With a background in talent development, she has impacted thousands of people across corporate, community, and university settings.

Transcript

Tara Thurber: 0:00

Hey everyone. Welcome back to Top5 brought to you by DefineTalent. We are a results driven service, working with clients to connect them with quality talent, as well as working to make an impact within the recruiting industry. We talk straight about today's professional world with real world professionals, experts in recruitment, job seekers and business owners alike have a question for us. Send it in, and you might spur our next conversation. I'm Tara Thurber, co founder and director of talent partnerships at DefineTalent. And joining me today is a superhuman I call Shell Bobev, founder of Disrupt the Gap. Hey, Shell. How are you today?

Shell Bobev: 0:43

I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me.

Tara Thurber: 0:46

Awesome. Super excited to have you, and please introduce yourself. Give us a brief professional background.

Shell Bobev: 0:52

Yes, so these days you know me as the founder of Disrupt the Gap. I'm going to get to a quick summary of that. Very briefly. I went to school the first time around for criminal justice, and then worked in the retail corporate world, merchandise planning, learning the ropes there. Ultimately, I had a desire to step into education, and the stars aligned, and I was a corporate trainer in the corporate world. I trained 1000s of people, from entry level folks to vice presidents, and I'm super grateful to align to my purpose as being an educator.

Tara Thurber: 1:29

Wonderful. Now, when we're talking about Disrupt the Gap you come from this quite a variety of a background. What was your inspiration? And would you share your story with our audience, too?

Shell Bobev: 1:47

I will Yeah, and for folks that are hearing about Disrupt the Gap, for the first time, it's a wage equality platform with a multi front approach. So one front is providing services for individuals, helping them ask for raises, understand their equal pay rights, handle compensation conversations with recruiters. Another front of disruption is working with employers, helping them understand the business case for equal pay, implement future proof compensation practices, also helping them stay legally compliant. Down the line, there will be other phases that are launched influencing legislation as well. So you may wonder, what's the backstory? How did I get involved with this? Well, during my corporate career, when I was a corporate trainer, I experienced a pay gap, and I tried for many years to resolve it on my own. I did all the things that we tell folks to do, have an amazing performance, get extra degrees, go in there, quantify your impact. And after many years, when I was not able to close the gap, I had the courage and the fortitude to to hire a lawyer and that embarked on about a four year process from start to finish.

Tara Thurber: 3:06

Wow!

Shell Bobev: 3:07

To get justice. And during that process, it was quite clear to me that there was a bigger calling, a bigger purpose. And I don't consider any of that as happening to me. I consider that happening for me, and I look at all the experiences I have, you know, being a trainer, training 1000s of people, and just giving me the skills and the perspective I need to be the person that leads now a wage equality revolution.

Tara Thurber: 3:33

I love everything about that Shell and the fact it's the courage too, to be able to stand up for yourself and to take that next step. And I feel so many individuals, they get to that point and they can't cross that threshold. And it's, it's overwhelming and scary.

Shell Bobev: 3:51

It is quite scary. I believe that there's a spiritual component as well. When you're David and you're standing up to Goliath.

Tara Thurber: 3:58

(laughs)

Shell Bobev: 3:59

So it's not for everyone. And I also feel a calling that now, being on the other side of it, I need to help influence changes, to spare folks from going through something like that as well.

Tara Thurber: 4:12

I love that. I love everything about that. When we talk about statistics, there's a certain common statistic that circulates, you know, but they warn you that some myths are in the mix. Which stats should we be paying attention to, and where do we need more nuance?

Shell Bobev: 4:30

Yeah, amen. So I think this is quite important, and there, there are quite a few myths that are circulating. So let's just talk about the the most common stat that we're all hearing, which is that women are being paid 80 cents on the dollar for what men are being paid. And I'm going to break that down. That statistic is actually looking at total annual earnings comparing the two genders, but that's across any job so and it also is influenced by the fact that women may need to take a break from the workforce for child care, elder care. It is still concerning that, on average, women are earning less. Why? We live longer? We are twice as likely to be poor when we're older with a smaller you know, it's estimated it could be we're earning about a million dollars less over the course of our lifetime. That's amplified for women of color as well. And just think about all the things that go into the funds that we need later in life by retirement accounts, Social Security benefits. Every single output that is impacted by earnings is therefore it's like a snowball effect, right?

Tara Thurber: 5:43

Right.

Shell Bobev: 5:44

Beyond that, you know, there's a community impact. Women are twice as likely as men to spend money with small businesses in their community. So it is an issue way beyond just women. Now let me also share this. I've just shared with you why we need more nuance with that. You know, 80 cent statistic, but are there gaps that are happening for women? There are. I'm going to give you some. An example of a study that I like to look at. There was a very large study that was conducted with numerous employers, numerous job applicants, and they looked at actual apples to apples two people doing the same job at the same employer, and what were their offer? And it was in a tech sector. So technology jobs.

Tara Thurber: 6:31

Okay.

Shell Bobev: 6:31

And they found that, and on average, in the New York City area, women were being offered, on average, about 10% less. Some people say, Well, women are asking for less. Okay, I'm going to say this. So as so long as we have a negotiation paradigm, there is always going to be gaps. That's that study also showed. Not only was it about 10% on average for women in the New York City area, but the actual range was anywhere from 4% less to 45% less, same job, same company! Now that is, you know, quite concerning.

Tara Thurber: 7:13

Yeah!

Shell Bobev: 7:14

I also want to say this, you know, so much of pay gap conversations are fixated on a gender gap, I do believe that there are occasions that that

Tara Thurber: 7:21

Right. happens. But I also want to raise awareness that pay gaps are happening for lots of other reasons, well beyond gender bias. Let me give a couple of examples. Imagine that you've got someone who's doing the same job for many years, maybe getting 2% each year with their increase, and then the organization hires somebody from the outside who's just starting at a higher rate, or, let's say you've got someone with a external job offer that they're considering, and then the employer offers them a counter offer to keep them. So I could go on and on, the moral of the story is gaps happen for lots of reasons. Right.

Shell Bobev: 8:03

Gaps do happen to women as well. There's plenty of anecdotal stories for that, and when we hear the very common statistics that are out there 80 cents on the dollar, we really need to understand that that's apples to oranges and still concerning because of the lifetime impact of lower overall earnings. I hope that gives folks a little bit more nuance to chew on.

Tara Thurber: 8:26

Absolutely does Shell and it's mind blowing too, the the separation, or the amount of a gap that can happen, but you're right. Gaps are going to happen in a multitude of ways, but I think what's most important is for the employer to acknowledge and assess, as much as it is for the employee to acknowledge/assess. And then there's communication that needs to happen, right? And I think in a lot of places, it's that open communication. A lot of people don't like to talk about salaries, or it's hard for a lot of people to ask for a raise or ask for more. So I think if we open up the playing ground for the communication around that, do you think that would perhaps lessen that gap as there's more acknowledgement and awareness within certain businesses?

Shell Bobev: 9:29

So a couple things. When I think about the level of dialog and transparency that you're describing, I characterize that as being one of the few overarching paradigm shifts that are experiencing that we're going through right now and work, think about the normalization of working from home, the normalization of transparency, even or a long time, there's always been a taboo of people comparing salary among their coworkers.

Tara Thurber: 9:55

Yeah.

Shell Bobev: 9:55

So I could go on and on there. We're just in an era of paradigm shifts. But to answer your question, absolutely! The solution happens at the organization level. I could train an army of folks to go in there and quantify the salary and ask for it. That's just a band aid. Change needs to happen at that higher level. And a big part of the work I do is helping organizations understand the business case. I do understand that the possibility of raising people up salary, the possibility of being transparent, I understand that that can seem scary. I get it.

Tara Thurber: 10:38

Yeah.

Shell Bobev: 10:38

And there's a increasing compliance landscape, which is also scary. Where I am in New Jersey, there's penalties that are quite magnified on employers as compared to other states. So to answer your question, absolutely change needs to happen at the organizational level, and we can support those organizations with helping them understand there is a business case, there is an impact to their revenue, to their ability to attract talent, their ability to stay compliant. And one day from now, it's going to just be the paradigm of transparency and equality.

Tara Thurber: 11:16

Definitely, definitely the transparency and equality. And it's, it's coming, I feel like it's kind of popped up in some states, and it's lending its way out into the rest of the states. Everybody is is feeling that movement, and it's kind of seeping out to those that have not yet reached that transparency. Now I want to come into how can each of us be change makers? Pperhaps solving a pervasive issue in ways the world hasn't seen before.

Shell Bobev: 11:48

Yes, amen. So when I think about what it means to be a change maker, and what it has meant in my life to be a change maker, I think about bringing forward solutions that you didn't know you were born to create that maybe folks haven't seen before.

Tara Thurber: 12:03

(laughs)

Shell Bobev: 12:03

So let me just share a couple of like, high level sentiments for folks that may be thinking about bringing forward some body of change. I think about identifying and serving a diverse range of stakeholders more than what seems obvious like, for example, when some folks tackle pay gaps, they might just think about doing workshops about asking for a raise, right?

Tara Thurber: 12:26

Right.

Shell Bobev: 12:27

But it's bigger than that. Who are all the stakeholders and further, how do we serve them with compassion? Recognizing that the stuff we're talking about is consequential, is heavy, can be scary and not alienating any stakeholder. I also think about as a change maker, we have a opportunity, really a mandate, to do our inner work. What I mean by that, confronting our fears. Maybe we're not going to bring forward a solution because we are afraid of rejection. Maybe we've got a limiting belief about what's possible, or maybe perceptions about how other people will view us if we're doing something professionally that's different from what they knew us before, what they expected of us, and healing through any past hurts that may have happened along the way. For me, I didn't really understand until pretty recently, the impact to self image when you go through a long chapter where you're treated as lesser. And so those are just some examples of really doing our inner work. The last thing I want to leave folks with is this idea of you don't need permission to create solutions.

Tara Thurber: 13:51

I love that sentence, Shell. Love that sentence. Sorry to interrupt you

Shell Bobev: 13:57

I first, I first heard this last year. There was a girl that does guerrilla gardening in Pennsylvania, and she shared that, and it just continues to rock my world. And I let her know, because so many of the institutions that we find ourselves in, whether it's a workplace or school or whatever we look for guideposts, permissions from other folks, and when we're doing something where there are no guideposts, there are no blueprints, it can be scary in lots of different ways, and we may think that we need some sort of permission, blessing, go ahead. Affirmation. It's human. It's human to want affirmation, right?

Tara Thurber: 14:37

Right.

Shell Bobev: 14:38

But I just offer to folks that there is a journey when, when you realize that you are called to create something capable of creating something beyond the permissions, the credibility that comes from external to you that's so powerful.

Tara Thurber: 14:55

It's really powerful. And being able to follow through. And forge forward, push forward, move that needle beyond where you're at. I think is really important for individuals to understand that you can move forward. You don't again, I'm coming back to you. You don't need permission to create solutions. That sentence, right there, is so powerful for any individual to sit and think with that, because I feel a lot of individuals, whether it's women or men or just humans in general, we all tend to want to have that permission or that blessing to say, yes, go ahead and make an impact, but why do they need to have that permission? If you feel it in your true core and your true self, then keep going!

Shell Bobev: 15:51

Yes. You know, as you were talking, that something occurred to me. I said.

Tara Thurber: 15:55

Yeah.

Shell Bobev: 15:55

Is it because we are so used to external indicators on whether we are enough, and maybe by someone from the outside saying, Yes, that's a good idea. Yes, you can do that. Maybe that bestows upon us. I'm good enough. I'm capable enough. So I think, you know, it's a powerful examination that we could go on. And in the moment, it just came to me is, this is a matter of, are we enough?

Tara Thurber: 16:26

That's something to sit and ponder, too.

Shell Bobev: 16:28

Amen,.

Tara Thurber: 16:29

Again, another important thought individuals need to and that's, that's something that you really can answer internally, and it's just as powerful as saying it out loud, too. So maybe just saying it to yourself internally, but then saying it out loud, maybe that would offer an individual that permission. So it's almost giving yourself permission, if that's something to help somebody kind of break through those barriers and those blocks that they're having. I don't know.

Shell Bobev: 17:07

I'll just offer to folks, if you're listening to this, sometime in the future you're considering some level of change making, please count me in your corner. Please reach out to me. I don't care how long it is after this episode is created, I'll be so glad to support you on your change making journey.

Tara Thurber: 17:25

Me too, Shell, I just got goosebumps. So Shell, tell me, what are your Top5 Ways to to Disrupt the Gap?

Shell Bobev: 17:33

Amen. So I knew that, I knew that this is the top five podcast, so I created some notes to allow me to draw from that. All right, so here's five key ways that I am personally using to disrupt the gap in my work. So the first I talked about this earlier, this idea of bringing together many stakeholders, but I want to dig deeper. I want to bring these stakeholders together in ways that's not alienating folks with blameful language, not using this divide and conquer tropes. I think, you know, pretty often the gap is framed pitting women against men, and for a bunch of reasons, I don't care to perpetuate that. I think in also connecting the stakeholders, we have opportunities to dismantle, dispel myths, and you know, and us going through those statistics earlier is a great way to dispel myth. So the first thing is, how do we bring together all of the stakeholders in ways that don't alienate blame or divide them? The second approach to disrupting the gap is to think through and create both immediate term solutions and long term solutions. So in the immediate term, the work that we do to help job candidates be their own advocate, that's the immediate term solution, right? A long term solution is working through

Tara Thurber: 18:50

Right. those organizational opportunities, and even beyond that, I hope one day to help states do their part as well, because we need more. Perhaps we need auditing bodies to support the laws that are being enacted. The third major approach to disrupting the gap is influencing people with the WIIFM, the what's in it for me, so that's why it's so critical to our work to bring forward and help understand the business case, whether that's understanding how your compensation practices intersect with your revenue, your talent recruitment, your retention rates, or the compliance disasters that you can avoid, all of that is major WIIFM. My fourth approach is that there needs to be a very clear level of empowerment, giving people clarity, possibility, confidence. How do I do that? One is the creation of impactful tools. It could be assessment tools. So for example, for employer clients, have a tool called Grade Your Pay. A and helps them understand through several key lenses, what are their risks, what are their opportunities? Beyond tools creating insights so disrupt the gap, creates proprietary insights from one stakeholder group and shares that with another stakeholder group. So for example, the work that we do, serving job candidates, collecting insights on their attitudes about pay transparency, their attitudes about employers that have gaps, and how that intersects with an impression of DEI commitment or not. Right.

Shell Bobev: 20:35

And using that to share that with the employer stakeholders. So the last opportunity to disrupt the gap, for me has been to help folks with the related inner gaps. So let's go way beyond the pay gap topic, because there are inner gaps that are happening for folks that are related. Shame. If someone was not able to secure a salary. Maybe they didn't do the negotiation perfectly. It's very possible that they're internalizing shame around that. For our employer folks maybe having some fears of what's going to happen when the rug is lifted up.

Tara Thurber: 21:14

Yup.

Shell Bobev: 21:14

So how do we help folks address those inner gaps and bring healing? So those are my top five ways that I'm personally applying when I Disrupt the Gap.

Tara Thurber: 21:24

These top five ways are fantastic, Shell. I think each and every one of these addresses and brings light to the table for our audience listening right now, I'm so excited that we had you on today to talk about your top five ways and what Disrupt the Gap means right now. Because I think even going back up to when we first started our conversation around the statistics, I think there's a lot going on out out in the world right now, and the statistics you know, aren't necessarily everything to be honing in on, because maybe there is some underlying acknowledgements or some underlying things that we need to look at. And I think you're right when it comes down to being able to identify, being able to bring everybody together, and coming back to your sense of self, bringing that healing from the inside out, both on the employee side and the employer side. So I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you so much for sharing your top five ways to Disrupt the Gap. Thank you.

Shell Bobev: 22:41

Thank you so much for having me, and thanks for everyone who tuned in.

Tara Thurber: 22:45

We are DefinedTalent, a DefinedLogic service coming to you at top five. Make it a great day.